That’s beautiful, though it seems like the perspective two steps below the one Sasha was entertaining—that relates to pain insofar as it opens the way for corresponding pleasure.
It's a bit like 'sneakily accepting the blood on the razor’s edge on the grounds that it can be converted into future honey.' but not exactly like that. I understand Gibran to mean that pain is inevitable, but experiencing it allows you to also feel joy more acutely. In other words, joy and sorrow are two faces of the same thing. I think this is true. I even wrote a song about it once: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aqct7F-l7wI&t=2s
I don’t follow the “in other words”. The first framing sounds equivalent to “no pain, no gain (and no pain isn’t an option anyway)” which is true but rather shallow. The non-duality of joy and sorrow seems like a different and more spiritually ambitious point, which I don’t really see Gibran making.
Your comments have prompted me to dig a little deeper into what others have written about Gibran's philosophy. I came across this paper, which talks about the dualities that appear often in Gibran's writing, but also how he ultimately pointed to a synthesis between dualities (e.g. joy and sorrow):
In Gibran's point of view, beauty "is a magnificence combined of sorrow and joy" and thus both sorrow and joy must be taken into account and be welcomed enthusiastically because life is a phenomenon that revolves around them.
Beautiful, and challenging. For me, the basic tendency to avoid pain can be really sneaky, and creep into my perspective in subtle ways. I'm often the guy trying to lick the honey from the razor's edge without getting cut, or reframing the cutting into a learning experience, or telling myself it's just an inevitable part of life. This is a good reminder and also makes me want to check out Roaring Silence, which I know you've recommended before.
Your post on “how to enjoy things” has been very helpful. I’ve found myself “savoring the intensity” a lot lately. This one seems like it would be too. Thank you.
These are beautiful insights and I appreciate their articulation here.The question I wish I could find an answer to, is how to confront or court the pain that comes from knowingly hurting another person. Non-acrimonious divorce comes to mind: Where is the line between "I am brave enough to create and confront this pain within myself" and "I am selfish enough to *cause* this pain for someone I still love, in spite of everything" ?
Honey and blood are all well and good as long as it's your own tongue on the line.
Well, it doesn’t answer the real question, but of course the choice with divorce is not between causing or not causing pain, but between causing a bigger pain soon versus continually causing pain for a long time.
But-- having power over only your own relationship with pain, and nobody else's, is it noble to elect to develop a more sophisticated relationship with disappointment, dissatisfaction, and unmet desire, in the pursuit of making another person feel always safe and loved? Rather than a lot of hurt now vs. small amounts of hurt every day for a long time, shouldn't it be possible to take all the pain for yourself and prevent any from reaching the other person?
Or in other words: after accepting the framing of the honey/razor metaphor, and accepting that suffering has its own kind of beauty and necessity, what reason is there not to compassionately martyr yourself for the right cause? Or the right person?
I don’t really see why the fact that you probably could learn to maintain the effective health of a relationship that a less spiritually accomplished person would tend to leave via this self-martyring changes anything about all the usual reasons to leave a bad relationship. It’s disrespecting your partner’s agency, freedom to follow their own journey, etc; to be fair this is just an attempt to rationalize a strong intuition that, of course you shouldn’t do that and I am certain I couldn’t be convinced, even if the particular argument I’ve just generated isn’t that convincing. The strong felt sense doesn’t mean I’m not wrong somehow of course.
This is simply and beautifully articulated, Sasha. Moving beyond duality for me means remembering all is well, no matter what shows up. We don't have to derive our sense of self from our moods, thoughts, or experiences - which makes everything neither terrible nor glorious. Thank you.
A monk asked a master, “It is so hot. How is it possible to escape from the heat?” And the master said, “Why don’t you go to a place where it is neither cold nor hot?” The disciple said, “Is there a place where it is neither cold nor hot?” The master said, “When it is cold you should be cold buddha. When it is hot you should be hot buddha.” You may think that if you practice zazen you will attain a stage where it is neither cold nor hot, where there is no pleasure or su¤ering. You may ask, “If we practice zazen is it possible to have that kind of attainment?” The true teacher will say, “When you suffer you should suffer. When you feel good you should feel good.” Sometimes you should be a suffering buddha. Sometimes you should be a crying buddha. And sometimes you should be a very happy buddha.
This happiness is not exactly the same as the happiness that people usually have. There is a little difference, and that little difference is significant. Because buddhas know both sides of reality, they have this kind of composure. They are not disturbed by something bad, or ecstatic about something good. They have a true joy that will always be with them. The basic tone of life remains the same, and in it there are some happy melodies and some sad melodies. That is the feeling an enlightened person may have. It means that when it is hot, or when you are sad, you should be completely involved in being hot or being sad, without caring for happiness. When you are happy you should just enjoy the happiness. We can do this because we are ready for anything. Even though circumstances change suddenly, we don’t mind. Today we may be very happy, and the next day we don’t know what will happen to us. When we are ready for what will happen tomorrow, then we can enjoy today completely. You do this not by studying a lecture but through your practice.
- Suzuki Roshi in Branching Streams Flow in the Darkness
Beautifully written. Even though I'm somewhere in the first tier of your life mindsets, it's very nice to be again reminded, that ocean and vastness is the goal and is partially attainable. It is what is left when most of the emotions are integrated. You will snap out of it, just like when thoughts absorb you in meditation, but hopefully, you'll return to your "baseline"- non-judgemental, accepting, free of tanha.
Gorgeous and insightful. Accepting that I will likely be all those versions - good and ugly and in between - of myself in one day is one of my biggest challenges.
Reminds me of Kahlil Gibran: 'The deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain.
Is not the cup that holds your wine the very cup that was burned in the potter’s oven?
And is not the lute that soothes your spirit, the very wood that was hollowed with knives?
When you are joyous, look deep into your heart and you shall find it is only that which has given you sorrow that is giving you joy.'
That’s beautiful, though it seems like the perspective two steps below the one Sasha was entertaining—that relates to pain insofar as it opens the way for corresponding pleasure.
It's a bit like 'sneakily accepting the blood on the razor’s edge on the grounds that it can be converted into future honey.' but not exactly like that. I understand Gibran to mean that pain is inevitable, but experiencing it allows you to also feel joy more acutely. In other words, joy and sorrow are two faces of the same thing. I think this is true. I even wrote a song about it once: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aqct7F-l7wI&t=2s
I don’t follow the “in other words”. The first framing sounds equivalent to “no pain, no gain (and no pain isn’t an option anyway)” which is true but rather shallow. The non-duality of joy and sorrow seems like a different and more spiritually ambitious point, which I don’t really see Gibran making.
Your comments have prompted me to dig a little deeper into what others have written about Gibran's philosophy. I came across this paper, which talks about the dualities that appear often in Gibran's writing, but also how he ultimately pointed to a synthesis between dualities (e.g. joy and sorrow):
In Gibran's point of view, beauty "is a magnificence combined of sorrow and joy" and thus both sorrow and joy must be taken into account and be welcomed enthusiastically because life is a phenomenon that revolves around them.
Source: https://dergipark.org.tr/tr/download/article-file/10239
Beautiful, and challenging. For me, the basic tendency to avoid pain can be really sneaky, and creep into my perspective in subtle ways. I'm often the guy trying to lick the honey from the razor's edge without getting cut, or reframing the cutting into a learning experience, or telling myself it's just an inevitable part of life. This is a good reminder and also makes me want to check out Roaring Silence, which I know you've recommended before.
"For me, the basic tendency to avoid pain can be really sneaky, and creep into my perspective in subtle ways"
meeeeeee toooooooooooooo
Your post on “how to enjoy things” has been very helpful. I’ve found myself “savoring the intensity” a lot lately. This one seems like it would be too. Thank you.
These are beautiful insights and I appreciate their articulation here.The question I wish I could find an answer to, is how to confront or court the pain that comes from knowingly hurting another person. Non-acrimonious divorce comes to mind: Where is the line between "I am brave enough to create and confront this pain within myself" and "I am selfish enough to *cause* this pain for someone I still love, in spite of everything" ?
Honey and blood are all well and good as long as it's your own tongue on the line.
Well, it doesn’t answer the real question, but of course the choice with divorce is not between causing or not causing pain, but between causing a bigger pain soon versus continually causing pain for a long time.
But-- having power over only your own relationship with pain, and nobody else's, is it noble to elect to develop a more sophisticated relationship with disappointment, dissatisfaction, and unmet desire, in the pursuit of making another person feel always safe and loved? Rather than a lot of hurt now vs. small amounts of hurt every day for a long time, shouldn't it be possible to take all the pain for yourself and prevent any from reaching the other person?
Or in other words: after accepting the framing of the honey/razor metaphor, and accepting that suffering has its own kind of beauty and necessity, what reason is there not to compassionately martyr yourself for the right cause? Or the right person?
I don’t really see why the fact that you probably could learn to maintain the effective health of a relationship that a less spiritually accomplished person would tend to leave via this self-martyring changes anything about all the usual reasons to leave a bad relationship. It’s disrespecting your partner’s agency, freedom to follow their own journey, etc; to be fair this is just an attempt to rationalize a strong intuition that, of course you shouldn’t do that and I am certain I couldn’t be convinced, even if the particular argument I’ve just generated isn’t that convincing. The strong felt sense doesn’t mean I’m not wrong somehow of course.
This is simply and beautifully articulated, Sasha. Moving beyond duality for me means remembering all is well, no matter what shows up. We don't have to derive our sense of self from our moods, thoughts, or experiences - which makes everything neither terrible nor glorious. Thank you.
Sorry kind of a long quote but...
A monk asked a master, “It is so hot. How is it possible to escape from the heat?” And the master said, “Why don’t you go to a place where it is neither cold nor hot?” The disciple said, “Is there a place where it is neither cold nor hot?” The master said, “When it is cold you should be cold buddha. When it is hot you should be hot buddha.” You may think that if you practice zazen you will attain a stage where it is neither cold nor hot, where there is no pleasure or su¤ering. You may ask, “If we practice zazen is it possible to have that kind of attainment?” The true teacher will say, “When you suffer you should suffer. When you feel good you should feel good.” Sometimes you should be a suffering buddha. Sometimes you should be a crying buddha. And sometimes you should be a very happy buddha.
This happiness is not exactly the same as the happiness that people usually have. There is a little difference, and that little difference is significant. Because buddhas know both sides of reality, they have this kind of composure. They are not disturbed by something bad, or ecstatic about something good. They have a true joy that will always be with them. The basic tone of life remains the same, and in it there are some happy melodies and some sad melodies. That is the feeling an enlightened person may have. It means that when it is hot, or when you are sad, you should be completely involved in being hot or being sad, without caring for happiness. When you are happy you should just enjoy the happiness. We can do this because we are ready for anything. Even though circumstances change suddenly, we don’t mind. Today we may be very happy, and the next day we don’t know what will happen to us. When we are ready for what will happen tomorrow, then we can enjoy today completely. You do this not by studying a lecture but through your practice.
- Suzuki Roshi in Branching Streams Flow in the Darkness
Beautifully written. Even though I'm somewhere in the first tier of your life mindsets, it's very nice to be again reminded, that ocean and vastness is the goal and is partially attainable. It is what is left when most of the emotions are integrated. You will snap out of it, just like when thoughts absorb you in meditation, but hopefully, you'll return to your "baseline"- non-judgemental, accepting, free of tanha.
Thank you so much for sharing this quote, I will carry it with me for a long time I think.
What a passage! Thank you Sasha for sharing; it made my day.
Gorgeous and insightful. Accepting that I will likely be all those versions - good and ugly and in between - of myself in one day is one of my biggest challenges.