On a very trivial level, i am reminded of that great quote:
“Confidence isn’t walking into a room and thinking you’re better than everyone, it’s walking in and not having to compare yourself to anyone at all.”
I know it is a bit different topic, but that what it feels for me sometimes. One possibility definitely seems that by dissolving the center/self in the awareness and so there is nothing that could be compared to. The second possibility is a question of priority, like having intrinsic motivation for something, loving to play an instrument so much, that the texture & play of this activity itself is so rewarding that there is no goal of comparing / even comparing to oneself because the mind channels the beauty of the activity and is fulfilled by the muse.
In a way, transcendence by dissolving the center or transcendence by letting become something else the center (an idea, activity, a vibe, flow experience in sport, love, care,..)
Perhaps what's needed is a re-evaluation of the work that actually matters. After all, it is still your choice to participate in some things, and not in others. It was your choice to begin a serious practice of meditation.
And then, along with acknowledging your genuine role in your own life, you can continue to acknowledge all the things for which you were not responsible at all. But none of those things -- the things you caused and the things you didn't -- need to play a role in "self-esteem." They are, instead, an amalgamation of truth.
That way, when you wish to dispense wisdom, you can do so from a posture absent ego. "Choosing to begin a serious practice of meditation has catalyzed an uncountable number of benefits in my life." Rather than, "I chose to take meditation seriously, which makes me a pretty cool and spiritual person, and therefore worthy of love and respect."
The whole problem with the ego is that it tries to determine self-worth using any and all evidence it can get its hands on. Some of that stuff can be truly attributable to you, some of it (most of it?) can't. Doesn't matter either way. The ego is only concerned with feeling OK, which means feeling worthy of love. So when you let go of ego, as you are doing, that doesn't necessitate the cognitive abdication of all responsibility for your life. It just reframes all of it to exclude obsessive self-evaluation.
Ha ha, I've never heard that one before but I love it! I was an EXTREMELY SPIRITUAL 13 year old girl and at 42, much of my current spiritual practice is allowing myself to return to that state.
that's interesting, why a 13 year old girl? because girls are taught not to take so much pride (hmmm, but repression and play acting aren't the real thing). I'm a female, btw, and was once a 13 yr old girl, and it might be true, that navigating all the guys eyes on new body parts and so on, whilst not being allowed to sit for exams perfectly able to ace, and sexism in general, did maybe teach us something, but that kind of depended on where you stood vis a vis your appearance - exactly the same conundrum - is being pretty worth pride? (no was always my answer, it was a genetic accident obv)
In the ten fetters model of awakening, one of the last to fall away is ''mana''. It's that intuitive sense of ''I'', a conceit that automatically induces comparison. You're describing feeling that comparison, or at least compliments, now seem odd, misaligned. That compliments should be ascribed to the whole marvelous dance of phenomena and to causes and conditions swirling around us. That's good to hear and fun to read, as always. May the causes and conditions of sparkly writing always be with you!
I find this ego-less-ness, suffocation of self-confidence, and philosophy of “nothing matters and we are all leaves in the wind” to be very dysgenic and bland. I think it makes the world quite unmotivating and hard to navigate. It’s good to value yourself and mentally healthy to praise your accomplishments. It is also good to reflect on your shortcomings and where your agency could have taken things in a different / better direction.
Sure, I’m glad you found an equilibrium that works for you. It sounds very comfortable to convince yourself that you have no agency or significance and embrace your brand of nihilism. But I think that’s bad advice to give others.
Agency is frustrating! It comes with the responsibility to do what we think is right. It comes with messy tradeoffs that we can regret. However, it inspires us to do more with our lives than simply seek comfort.
I have an incredible amount of internal dissonance as a result of holding both of these views. Not bad dissonance, necessarily, but it certainly isn't harmony!
I find these comments fascinating, because a few years ago I probably would've thought similar to some of what is being said here, but now I don't anymore. So: I don't think Sasha is denying agency, or against self-reflection, or against doing the right (and maybe difficult) thing. I don't think he is denying personal significance, though that is a more complex topic. And I also don't think he is advocating any form of nihilism. As I understand it, he is just talking about the very experiential insight that we are maybe way less in control than we think or thought we are, or rather, that control and responsibility work in ways way different than we assume(d). And that from that on, taking credit can become a very strange thing. I mean, maybe it is not more than the stunning insight that if you stop taking in negative judgements from yourself and others, you also need to stop taking in the positive ones, because they are in essence the very same thing just turned around. That is, they are both judgements, and sorting things into "good" and "bad". And that it might be very liberating to loosen the grip of this judging-sorting mechanism, because you can suddenly become very present with what is happening here and now and deal with things in a more constructive and unfiltered manner, and -- who are you to say what is good and bad anyways? And it is not that you lose your human spark: You can still make a mistake, have a chuckle, or take in a gentle compliment with a smile.
I love this comment, my journey into being a piss poor buddhist was about the Shenpa (hook, which now I'd associate with dopamine hits) - and how this kind of battle of the blame/praise was so attached to a kind of super excitement in my brain and how long term that was damaging. But also because I had a terrible eating disorder when young that I got rid of by stopping looking at myself in mirrors, and stopping buying (into and literally) women's magazines (thus removing myself from a lot of 'normal' conversation). eventually I grew to wonder what a cat feels like about themselves. our priase/blame is so intense so competitive, but ultimately outwardly focused, whereas gradual lessening of that might just make something more bearable (conflict in script writing etc, getting notes back on lyrics etc etc, someone not loving you). but it doesn't ever stop you wanting things, that battle is a necessary part of life and no sutra ever suggested we'd stop that, more stop being so attached or attached to the wanting or the outcome. (hmmm as I write that I wonder if it's at all true that Nirvana/unboundedness might look like that after all). One thing I noticed in my sangha was the gay men and the females mostly (MOSTLY) were not focussed on 'enlightenment' as a goal, but on 'being less of an asshole'. perhaps because we're already outside the mainstream cultural game, although now brought in 'allowed to play' etc.oh this turned into random thoughts.
I've been stewing on this article since yesterday and trying to formulate a comment. though pointed, Avery's comments concisely capture the core of how i feel about it.
I think this rebuttal from Fabian here is off and missing the point.
(1) the original article makes some pretty explicit points around denying personal significance, denying agency, echoes pillars of nihilism, rejecting self reflection. it may not have been the intention but as written:
"I call it cosmic impostor syndrome. It is what happens when you realize that you really shouldn’t be taking credit for your life, and, as a result, the whole concept of self-esteem stops making sense. "
"and, suddenly, I experienced a soul-level cringe when I realized that I was being lavishly praised for reciting obvious truths, none of which belonged to me. I was just a conduit for trivia I’d encountered by chance. "
"when someone says something nice about my work, it feels like they are complimenting me for the weather. "
what is the point sasha is trying to make with these specific sentences then??
(2) "As I understand it, he is just talking about the very experiential insight that we are maybe way less in control than we think or thought we are, or rather, that control and responsibility work in ways way different than we assume(d). " - I wonder if you're assuming Avery's comments come from a place of not understanding this observation that is made in the article. Yes, I agree that this is an observation that was made in the article. and I agree that, the less you attach your value to criticisms your perceive from others, then you will also start to attach less value to 'compliments' or praise from others. I agree finding peace is detaching from fully basing your value off compliments and shattering in the face of critcism, and spending all your mental energy on that external input.
My problem with the article is the conclusions sasha confidently seems to draw from this observation + the anecdotal experiences he references in the article and his emotional reactions to them.
Sasha's conclusion seems to be, having a mental model where you acknowledge things you have directly contributed to/accomplished are different from everything else that happens in this world (eg the tanginess of the pineapple) is...bad? reflects a misunderstanding of the fundamental nature of the universe? not optimal? and the ideal state of being is to push harder into a mindset where you make no meaningful, emotional discernment between your own actions (on a practical level) and the rest of the universe - and reject the idea there is a meaningful difference between those things to yourself and reject that acknowledgment from others as valid.
I agree that this it is a good idea to not let your self-perception fully depend on compliments/criticism from others and swing wildly based on external input on your actions. Sasha posits that self esteem stops making sense when youre 'elightended', and defines self esteem as something like 'fully basing your self worth as a human on all the input you get from others about yourself'. I dont think self esteem is usually defined that way. I think this definition is wrong and doesnt reflect what many view self esteem as.
My theory is the optimal state of being incorporates balance and flexibility to move between reflection on how my actions impact others/the world and being motivated by that, and the 'we are all pebbles in the fabric of the universe so im not gonna think so had all the time about what im doing' mentality. depending on the situation i am in.
Also something for Sasha to consider - my honest perspective is you self-cringed at the "compliment" because...you were being cringy (acting in a way not aligned with your values, and then the compliment you did not appreciate made you aware of it, and thats why it hurt). Someone else made a much more thoughtful/gentle comment expressing the same sentiment. Consider that how you felt about this random compliment has nothing to do with lack of understanding from those around you who you view as 'not enlightened', of how the universe works. People trying to give you a compliment may understand the same things as you do, but still value giving a genuine compliment anyway, and that is why it is annoying when you reject them.
Paradoxically, personal agency works better when it’s not about you. If you look at the things you do as a reflection of yourself / as inputs to your self-esteem, that’s a filter that gets in the way of seeing the world in full color, and so it also gets in the way of acting effectively. I run into this in parenting, where decisions I make because they make me feel like a gold star parent tend to be less in tune with the situation and actually kinda stupid, and I’ve heard that the same thing on a larger scale can be a problem for charity. If people invest in the fantasy of themselves as good and generous and so feel motivated to find evidence for their own goodness, then it makes it harder for them to really see the people they want to help. So they tend to “other” the people they’re helping, and it can make them mad if a recipient of their charity doesn’t correctly perform the role of humble and deserving or has other desires of their own. Oops.
Sasha, similar to your experience of feeling uncomfortable being called wise, but coming from the perspective of pagan practice: I had a trance where I caught a glimpse of myself as a creature who spoke the words of recordings I’d been given—kind of like a human tape deck—and then the same people who gave me the recordings heaped lavish praise on me and gave me lots of stuff because they liked what I was saying so much. It helped me see how weird and circular doing things for praise is, and how the praise I’ve been given isn’t exactly about me or something I want to take credit for. I'll join you in feeling uncomfortable with it.
the force that makes the pineapple tangy really went off when it materialized that ending
On a very trivial level, i am reminded of that great quote:
“Confidence isn’t walking into a room and thinking you’re better than everyone, it’s walking in and not having to compare yourself to anyone at all.”
I know it is a bit different topic, but that what it feels for me sometimes. One possibility definitely seems that by dissolving the center/self in the awareness and so there is nothing that could be compared to. The second possibility is a question of priority, like having intrinsic motivation for something, loving to play an instrument so much, that the texture & play of this activity itself is so rewarding that there is no goal of comparing / even comparing to oneself because the mind channels the beauty of the activity and is fulfilled by the muse.
In a way, transcendence by dissolving the center or transcendence by letting become something else the center (an idea, activity, a vibe, flow experience in sport, love, care,..)
Perhaps what's needed is a re-evaluation of the work that actually matters. After all, it is still your choice to participate in some things, and not in others. It was your choice to begin a serious practice of meditation.
And then, along with acknowledging your genuine role in your own life, you can continue to acknowledge all the things for which you were not responsible at all. But none of those things -- the things you caused and the things you didn't -- need to play a role in "self-esteem." They are, instead, an amalgamation of truth.
That way, when you wish to dispense wisdom, you can do so from a posture absent ego. "Choosing to begin a serious practice of meditation has catalyzed an uncountable number of benefits in my life." Rather than, "I chose to take meditation seriously, which makes me a pretty cool and spiritual person, and therefore worthy of love and respect."
The whole problem with the ego is that it tries to determine self-worth using any and all evidence it can get its hands on. Some of that stuff can be truly attributable to you, some of it (most of it?) can't. Doesn't matter either way. The ego is only concerned with feeling OK, which means feeling worthy of love. So when you let go of ego, as you are doing, that doesn't necessitate the cognitive abdication of all responsibility for your life. It just reframes all of it to exclude obsessive self-evaluation.
A little like the meme “men do shrooms once and realize things 13 year old girls have discovered alone in their bedrooms” but I feel seen nonetheless
Ha ha, I've never heard that one before but I love it! I was an EXTREMELY SPIRITUAL 13 year old girl and at 42, much of my current spiritual practice is allowing myself to return to that state.
that's interesting, why a 13 year old girl? because girls are taught not to take so much pride (hmmm, but repression and play acting aren't the real thing). I'm a female, btw, and was once a 13 yr old girl, and it might be true, that navigating all the guys eyes on new body parts and so on, whilst not being allowed to sit for exams perfectly able to ace, and sexism in general, did maybe teach us something, but that kind of depended on where you stood vis a vis your appearance - exactly the same conundrum - is being pretty worth pride? (no was always my answer, it was a genetic accident obv)
In the ten fetters model of awakening, one of the last to fall away is ''mana''. It's that intuitive sense of ''I'', a conceit that automatically induces comparison. You're describing feeling that comparison, or at least compliments, now seem odd, misaligned. That compliments should be ascribed to the whole marvelous dance of phenomena and to causes and conditions swirling around us. That's good to hear and fun to read, as always. May the causes and conditions of sparkly writing always be with you!
I find this ego-less-ness, suffocation of self-confidence, and philosophy of “nothing matters and we are all leaves in the wind” to be very dysgenic and bland. I think it makes the world quite unmotivating and hard to navigate. It’s good to value yourself and mentally healthy to praise your accomplishments. It is also good to reflect on your shortcomings and where your agency could have taken things in a different / better direction.
idk man my feeling is that life is a miracle it's just not my miracle, and i feel better than ever
Sure, I’m glad you found an equilibrium that works for you. It sounds very comfortable to convince yourself that you have no agency or significance and embrace your brand of nihilism. But I think that’s bad advice to give others.
Agency is frustrating! It comes with the responsibility to do what we think is right. It comes with messy tradeoffs that we can regret. However, it inspires us to do more with our lives than simply seek comfort.
idk man i feel like you're projecting a lot
I have an incredible amount of internal dissonance as a result of holding both of these views. Not bad dissonance, necessarily, but it certainly isn't harmony!
Me too. My view is that you have a few important levers and windows of opportunity and that’s all you get.
I find these comments fascinating, because a few years ago I probably would've thought similar to some of what is being said here, but now I don't anymore. So: I don't think Sasha is denying agency, or against self-reflection, or against doing the right (and maybe difficult) thing. I don't think he is denying personal significance, though that is a more complex topic. And I also don't think he is advocating any form of nihilism. As I understand it, he is just talking about the very experiential insight that we are maybe way less in control than we think or thought we are, or rather, that control and responsibility work in ways way different than we assume(d). And that from that on, taking credit can become a very strange thing. I mean, maybe it is not more than the stunning insight that if you stop taking in negative judgements from yourself and others, you also need to stop taking in the positive ones, because they are in essence the very same thing just turned around. That is, they are both judgements, and sorting things into "good" and "bad". And that it might be very liberating to loosen the grip of this judging-sorting mechanism, because you can suddenly become very present with what is happening here and now and deal with things in a more constructive and unfiltered manner, and -- who are you to say what is good and bad anyways? And it is not that you lose your human spark: You can still make a mistake, have a chuckle, or take in a gentle compliment with a smile.
Can you write my next post for me
I love this comment, my journey into being a piss poor buddhist was about the Shenpa (hook, which now I'd associate with dopamine hits) - and how this kind of battle of the blame/praise was so attached to a kind of super excitement in my brain and how long term that was damaging. But also because I had a terrible eating disorder when young that I got rid of by stopping looking at myself in mirrors, and stopping buying (into and literally) women's magazines (thus removing myself from a lot of 'normal' conversation). eventually I grew to wonder what a cat feels like about themselves. our priase/blame is so intense so competitive, but ultimately outwardly focused, whereas gradual lessening of that might just make something more bearable (conflict in script writing etc, getting notes back on lyrics etc etc, someone not loving you). but it doesn't ever stop you wanting things, that battle is a necessary part of life and no sutra ever suggested we'd stop that, more stop being so attached or attached to the wanting or the outcome. (hmmm as I write that I wonder if it's at all true that Nirvana/unboundedness might look like that after all). One thing I noticed in my sangha was the gay men and the females mostly (MOSTLY) were not focussed on 'enlightenment' as a goal, but on 'being less of an asshole'. perhaps because we're already outside the mainstream cultural game, although now brought in 'allowed to play' etc.oh this turned into random thoughts.
I've been stewing on this article since yesterday and trying to formulate a comment. though pointed, Avery's comments concisely capture the core of how i feel about it.
I think this rebuttal from Fabian here is off and missing the point.
(1) the original article makes some pretty explicit points around denying personal significance, denying agency, echoes pillars of nihilism, rejecting self reflection. it may not have been the intention but as written:
"I call it cosmic impostor syndrome. It is what happens when you realize that you really shouldn’t be taking credit for your life, and, as a result, the whole concept of self-esteem stops making sense. "
"and, suddenly, I experienced a soul-level cringe when I realized that I was being lavishly praised for reciting obvious truths, none of which belonged to me. I was just a conduit for trivia I’d encountered by chance. "
"when someone says something nice about my work, it feels like they are complimenting me for the weather. "
what is the point sasha is trying to make with these specific sentences then??
(2) "As I understand it, he is just talking about the very experiential insight that we are maybe way less in control than we think or thought we are, or rather, that control and responsibility work in ways way different than we assume(d). " - I wonder if you're assuming Avery's comments come from a place of not understanding this observation that is made in the article. Yes, I agree that this is an observation that was made in the article. and I agree that, the less you attach your value to criticisms your perceive from others, then you will also start to attach less value to 'compliments' or praise from others. I agree finding peace is detaching from fully basing your value off compliments and shattering in the face of critcism, and spending all your mental energy on that external input.
My problem with the article is the conclusions sasha confidently seems to draw from this observation + the anecdotal experiences he references in the article and his emotional reactions to them.
Sasha's conclusion seems to be, having a mental model where you acknowledge things you have directly contributed to/accomplished are different from everything else that happens in this world (eg the tanginess of the pineapple) is...bad? reflects a misunderstanding of the fundamental nature of the universe? not optimal? and the ideal state of being is to push harder into a mindset where you make no meaningful, emotional discernment between your own actions (on a practical level) and the rest of the universe - and reject the idea there is a meaningful difference between those things to yourself and reject that acknowledgment from others as valid.
I agree that this it is a good idea to not let your self-perception fully depend on compliments/criticism from others and swing wildly based on external input on your actions. Sasha posits that self esteem stops making sense when youre 'elightended', and defines self esteem as something like 'fully basing your self worth as a human on all the input you get from others about yourself'. I dont think self esteem is usually defined that way. I think this definition is wrong and doesnt reflect what many view self esteem as.
My theory is the optimal state of being incorporates balance and flexibility to move between reflection on how my actions impact others/the world and being motivated by that, and the 'we are all pebbles in the fabric of the universe so im not gonna think so had all the time about what im doing' mentality. depending on the situation i am in.
Also something for Sasha to consider - my honest perspective is you self-cringed at the "compliment" because...you were being cringy (acting in a way not aligned with your values, and then the compliment you did not appreciate made you aware of it, and thats why it hurt). Someone else made a much more thoughtful/gentle comment expressing the same sentiment. Consider that how you felt about this random compliment has nothing to do with lack of understanding from those around you who you view as 'not enlightened', of how the universe works. People trying to give you a compliment may understand the same things as you do, but still value giving a genuine compliment anyway, and that is why it is annoying when you reject them.
Paradoxically, personal agency works better when it’s not about you. If you look at the things you do as a reflection of yourself / as inputs to your self-esteem, that’s a filter that gets in the way of seeing the world in full color, and so it also gets in the way of acting effectively. I run into this in parenting, where decisions I make because they make me feel like a gold star parent tend to be less in tune with the situation and actually kinda stupid, and I’ve heard that the same thing on a larger scale can be a problem for charity. If people invest in the fantasy of themselves as good and generous and so feel motivated to find evidence for their own goodness, then it makes it harder for them to really see the people they want to help. So they tend to “other” the people they’re helping, and it can make them mad if a recipient of their charity doesn’t correctly perform the role of humble and deserving or has other desires of their own. Oops.
Sasha, similar to your experience of feeling uncomfortable being called wise, but coming from the perspective of pagan practice: I had a trance where I caught a glimpse of myself as a creature who spoke the words of recordings I’d been given—kind of like a human tape deck—and then the same people who gave me the recordings heaped lavish praise on me and gave me lots of stuff because they liked what I was saying so much. It helped me see how weird and circular doing things for praise is, and how the praise I’ve been given isn’t exactly about me or something I want to take credit for. I'll join you in feeling uncomfortable with it.
I have a meditation question not directly related to this post
Are "divine grace" (*) and loving-kindness/metta the same thing?
I was reading about metta meditation the other day and I thought it sounds like it might be a different name for a very similar experience?
(for context, I'm an absolute beginner meditator)
(*) as per https://docs.google.com/document/d/11GdSQQI520lKR9rLMaDnVrkywEaUZy3FlwyoGxox6WI
I think they're overlapping but not the same!
Okay, thank you!